tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post686635644425565172..comments2023-04-02T18:14:59.200-04:00Comments on Culture Dove: Human SacrificeCulture Dovehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15230335386127525198noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-72494701992506883392007-01-14T20:58:00.000-05:002007-01-14T20:58:00.000-05:00First of all you've just demonstrated that you
ne...First of all you've just demonstrated that you <br />needed to bury me in your expanation as to why you<br />don't need to apologize. I have no idea how to respond <br />to someone who seems eager to cite the humility to<br />clause, but fails to exercise the same to others.<br />Cleanhead is a case study in reaching out to more<br />than those in the cloistered fundamentalist camp<br />that nod their heads, say amen and drink the kool<br />aid. You have chosen the road you want to follow-<br />you may want to look where you're going though<br />as many are getting run over in your wake.<br /><br />At the beginning, I took the approach that I would<br />not respond to your invective and even ignore it. But<br />the chorus of agreement is getting too loud to ignore<br />the fact that the condescension and tone and defense<br />you mount are all poor witnesses to your belief in the<br />risen Christ. You can say what you will on this thread<br />but this is my last post on the matter. I will take care<br />to pussyfoot around you and your statements, as<br />there seems no way to make my statements without<br />the wrath of HO.The Real Music Observerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07387434982189439053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-67020367797115367642007-01-14T19:14:00.000-05:002007-01-14T19:14:00.000-05:00OK, the view from the blog owner here (who will ac...OK, the view from the blog owner here (who will act as moderator for the time being) is that everyone has some valid points and some concessions/apologies would be nice, but we don't need to go there. Let's just stay on topic or move on.<br /><br />I think that HO may be on to something in thinking about the limitations of blogging. I also agree with him that meeting in real life is helpful. I did just that with Dave today and the dialogue was much more natural and easy to understand. Some of what I said to him was playfully sarcastic, not biting, but amusing. He understood me because I was sitting across the table from him. This is simply not possible here. He even suggested that I post some of what I was saying, but the truth is that I couldn't make it sound the way I want by writing it here.<br /><br />It is a tricky thing to be passionate without sounding judgmental or downright condescending. It is even possible to "bury people with facts" and thus be offensive without intending it. Maybe we all need to agree not to suggest how another ought to behave but never give up our right to state how someone else has made us feel. Stating one's feelings doesn't mean that the other intentionally tried to make you feel that way, but it might help the other to see the impact of his or her words.<br /><br />I don't mean to psychoanalyze this discussion, but I don't want our common dialogue to end because of hurt feelings that can be avoided.Culture Dovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15230335386127525198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-27656948011276637392007-01-14T18:18:00.000-05:002007-01-14T18:18:00.000-05:00Please excuse me Ian, but I feel this needs to be ...Please excuse me Ian, but I feel this needs to be said. If you find that I have overstepped on your site, then I request that you edit this comment out.<br /> David, I feel the need to admonish you over the tirade you issued toward OP. <br /> Not because I agree with him on so many points, but because you have let frustration and emotion overrun your sense of judgment.<br /> OP has a gift of intellect and vocabulary that few others exhibit. He also has a passion for fact finding and presentation in a concise way. Mr Cleanhead, who very often brings fuel but no marshmallows to the campfire of debate, chooses to refute well constructed arguments and researched facts with anger and bile. I surmise this because he consistently has little to offer in the way of valid justification for the points he presents in his posts. Frankly he can not handle the heat, but stays in the kitchen and screams about the burn.<br /> While you may sometimes struggle with the content and volume of OP`s posts, I offer that you would do well to aspire to better research, and presentation rather than emotional responses aimed to demean a brother.<br /> OP offered apology for is valid offenses, and you have done nothing less than slap the cheek he turned to you. As a Christian brother your response to his overture is shameful, and your support of Mr. Cleanheads poorly considered post is disappointing.mkzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06670914911711258522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-4177782758612531262007-01-14T08:51:00.000-05:002007-01-14T08:51:00.000-05:00David, I asked for input from you and otehrs becau...David, I asked for input from you and otehrs because, as I stated, I am listening. You have chosen to kick a man who has reached out. That is difficult to understand. Perhaps the old addage hurt people hurt people applies here.<br /><br />I owe no other apologies than those I have issued in the past, and I have never levied the type of accusation that you and cleanhead have - the accusation that I am not serious about my deliberations, but that I am merely trying to bury people, that I am seeking to avoid the realities of life through elegant prose. That is to accuse me of deliberate deception and not caring about truth, indeed not caring about God. David, your judgement is so far off. You even commended cleanhead for his post.<br /><br />Stats and facts are what one must consider, not raw emotion. Any time I offer stats to challenge a point, you rebut with personal insult. It is almost as if to disagree with you is to insult you. Ian's post are often as long or longer than mine, but tend more towards personal opinion and subjectivity. It seems that objectivity has place in the search for common ground.<br /><br />In the presence of many words sin is not lacking. I have been insensitive to the differences between style, and content etc. I admitted to bullying and I apologize for those things.<br /><br />Again though, I owe no other apology and none is forthcoming, my conscinece bears witness and God is my judge, not Dave. And scripture gives the prescription for approaching a brother you think is in sin. "If you see a brother overtaken in a fault, you who are spiritual go to him in a spirit of humility and seek to restore him". If you were genuinely concerned about those things David, God has given you a way. <br /><br />As it is, I sense you have little concern for me as a person, and feel treated like an obstacle to be overcome in your personal journey. That is not comon ground. And I disrespect your dumping on my soul in public.<br /><br />Still, I favor reconcilliation, and I hope you prefer likewise.Hollands Opushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07934064700542652027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-58561171138828753322007-01-14T00:03:00.000-05:002007-01-14T00:03:00.000-05:00Another point of order is this is Ian's blog
and h...Another point of order is this is Ian's blog<br />and he has taken great pains to make his views known;<br />his theology and his stance on issues. In all these<br />he has been consistent, eloquent and civil. HO, it<br />seems every time you make a point you inject a<br />type of moral intellectual superiority that intentionally<br />draws some kind of divisive line in the sand. Whether<br />you use loaded language or an avalanche of stats,<br />your task is to bury the reader and as cleanhead aptly<br />put it, dope them into thinking you are somehow more<br />learned. You nailed me on my blog regarding humilty,<br />but thus far I have seen zero from your keypad. You<br />err in your estimation of those who blog here and who<br />keep score in this world. All the elegant prose you can<br />muster won't save you from the realities of this life.<br />I would advise you to restrain from picking fights as <br />they are unbecoming to one who professes Christ as<br />Jesus shunned them and went to a bloody death to<br />avoid one. In all seriousness, you owe the bloggers<br />here, especially cleanhead an apology and I expect <br />you to come clean and act like a Christian.The Real Music Observerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07387434982189439053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-8188790595761225262007-01-13T22:47:00.000-05:002007-01-13T22:47:00.000-05:00HO, I sometimes interject things like humor, to ma...HO, I sometimes interject things like humor, to make a point or to add levity. Sorry again. This is a presidency about nothing, and the economic stats are deceiving as Lou Dobbs as elequently pointed out in his new book about the shrinking middle class. To some of your other points: I could care less if Jimmy Carter signed the warrant to invade Iraq-that warrant has expired. Politically speaking, George Bush is on life number 8. His handlers have stated as much. <br /><br /><br /><br />The underlying question still remains, and I will continue to point this out until this server shuts down, this war is illegal and anticonstitutional, and I would impeach Ronald Reagan, JFK or Teddy Roosevelt if they were guilty of the same malfiecience.<br /><br />One final thought here is that some responses do not deserve a reply if they continue to stir up the same sludge without shedding new light on the issue. HO, your myriad of stats and endless sources makes for great footnoting,but in the world of blogging has become very tedious. You may want to engage the Harvard faculty or MIT grads instead of turnips like yours truly.The Real Music Observerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07387434982189439053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-48884509474596883992007-01-13T20:50:00.000-05:002007-01-13T20:50:00.000-05:00Thank you again OP, for filling in my blanks, you ...Thank you again OP, for filling in my blanks, you save me lots of fingerdancing.mkzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06670914911711258522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-70593150147350064422007-01-13T18:06:00.000-05:002007-01-13T18:06:00.000-05:00Ian,
thanks for hosting this important topic. Inde...Ian,<br />thanks for hosting this important topic. Indeed, we can move on to others! I plan to do my next blog on the limitations of blogging!<br /><br />Hello Psalmist, if you see my response to Peacebang I offer comment on the difference between God's specific command to kill a certain people at a certain time in the past to purge His land (this is not a standing order) and His command in the NT to gently persuade (something I need some work on at times!) This is in contrast to an ongoing open command to kill the infidels endorsed by the Qur'an, though many Muslims have rightly foresaken that command. Fortunaltey, estimates place the radical Islamists at only about 15% of thier population - but when there are millions - the math is scary.<br /><br />PeaceHollands Opushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07934064700542652027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-27947669107070336552007-01-13T15:53:00.000-05:002007-01-13T15:53:00.000-05:00I echo mkz's welcome of Psalmist, whose point made...I echo mkz's welcome of Psalmist, whose point made even me feel a twinge of guilt for even using the term Muslim extremist (although I think I used Radical Islam...same point). Actually, that is the area in which I need to reflect and where the next post on the topic may be.<br /><br />mkz, you may be correct that the Bible doesn't suggest violence as an evangelistic tool, it simply demands the death of infidels who inhabit the Promised Land. I guess that explains the "Christian Extremists" who blindly support Israel? (flame away, I only provoke to make the point, I'm not going to debate the point seriously)Culture Dovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15230335386127525198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-50362614559225511092007-01-13T15:46:00.000-05:002007-01-13T15:46:00.000-05:00Welcome Psalmist!
Always good to hear a new voic...Welcome Psalmist!<br /> Always good to hear a new voice.<br />If you follow my posts, you will see that I equate`Radical Islam` to orthodox Islam. Any Religion that advocates conversion or death as a basic tenant poses a problem in peaceful relations with neighbors.<br /> There are millions of liberal Muslims who, like liberal Christians pick and choose what they feel comfortable in believing. These are not a threat to anyone as they are willing to accommodate any change in theology to make everyone happy.<br /> I have never found a passage in the bible that advocates war to bring a sinner to salvation.mkzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06670914911711258522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-73733944955961525222007-01-13T15:35:00.000-05:002007-01-13T15:35:00.000-05:00OP, thank you for illustrating my point on the ten...OP, thank you for illustrating my point on the tenacity and absolute commitment of orthodox radical Islam so much better than I did. <br /> Ian and David, I feel we have flagellated this terminal equestrian to a bloody emulsion.<br /> Suffice it to say that we disagree on a lot of points, and nothing we say or do here will ever change the mind of fanatics bent on the destruction of those who do not worship as they do, when their god tells them to convert them or kill them.<br /> David, I may well not understand the Jeffersonian values enough to explain the necessity of the war we wage by those terms. However I feel that if Thomas Jefferson was a voting member of congress from 1991 on till today, and had seen the shocking devastation of the WTC, and heard the rhetoric of the radical Islamic world and it's mandate to destroy all who do not worship Allah, he may have a different opinion on what constitutes a `legal` war.<br /> We are in a bad situation, no doubt. The road ahead holds only more bloodshed either turn we take. Turn left and leave the war to the Islamic factions, and we will fight a stronger and emboldened enemy later on our own soil, with dire and unimaginable consequences for all the free world.<br /> Turn right, stay in the fight and we will see thousands more American soldiers die on the television, and the war expand into Iran and Syria, and last for years, or until nuclear light flashes over the middle east and jihadists and innocents are broken alike.<br /> Either way the future is going to be difficult. And it seems likely that we will live long enough to see the worst of it unfold. <br /> Jesus, come in Glory and establish your Kingdom soon I pray.mkzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06670914911711258522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-24541822286674508412007-01-13T15:03:00.000-05:002007-01-13T15:03:00.000-05:00OP, your list is an important contribution to the ...OP, your list is an important contribution to the debate, but since it now seems to be getting buried in the comments on this thread perhaps it warrants it's own post? The comments on this post seem to have meandered a bit. I can't say that I have a lot of energy left for this discussion, but you may want to strike it up anew on your blog.<br /><br />My thoughts in this area are heading in a different direction which may appear as new blog post at some point.Culture Dovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15230335386127525198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-57032013172710032942007-01-13T11:13:00.000-05:002007-01-13T11:13:00.000-05:00Cleanhead, from this point on I will delete anythi...Cleanhead, from this point on I will delete anything that you post on my blog and will not respond to your comments on other blogs.Hollands Opushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07934064700542652027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-66822514499837927312007-01-13T08:52:00.000-05:002007-01-13T08:52:00.000-05:00Here is the list. Americans did not attack and bom...Here is the list. Americans did not attack and bomb etc. to any meaningful extent when all of this happened. I think it fair to say we gave peace a chance, and that we have to stop radical Islam because we are the only people capable (whether or not we succeed is another question, of course)<br /><br /><br />— November 1979: Muslim extremists (Iranian variety) seized the U.S. embassy in Iran and held 52 American hostages for 444 days.<br /><br />— 1982: Muslim extremists (mostly Hezbollah) began a nearly decade-long habit of taking Americans and Europeans hostage in Lebanon, killing William Buckley and holding Terry Anderson for 6 1/2 years.<br /><br />— April 1983: Muslim extremists (Islamic Jihad or possibly Hezbollah) bombed the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, killing 16 Americans.<br /><br />— October 1983: Muslim extremists (Hezbollah) blew up the U.S. Marine barracks at the Beirut airport, killing 241 Marines.<br /><br />— December 1983: Muslim extremists (al-Dawa) blew up the U.S. Embassy in Kuwait, killing five and injuring 80.<br /><br />— September 1984: Muslim extremists (Hezbollah) exploded a truck bomb at the U.S. Embassy annex in Beirut, killing 24 people, including two U.S. servicemen.<br /><br />— December 1984: Muslim extremists (probably Hezbollah) hijacked a Kuwait Airways airplane, landed in Iran and demanded the release of the 17 members of al-Dawa who had been arrested for the bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Kuwait, killing two Americans before the siege was over.<br /><br />— June 14, 1985: Muslim extremists (Hezbollah) hijacked TWA Flight 847 out of Athens, diverting it to Beirut, taking the passengers hostage in return for the release of the Kuwait 17 as well as another 700 prisoners held by Israel. When their demands were not met, the Muslims shot U.S. Navy diver Robert Dean Stethem and dumped his body on the tarmac.<br /><br />— October 1985: Muslim extremists (Palestine Liberation Front backed by Libya) seized an Italian cruise ship, the Achille Lauro, killing 69-year-old American Leon Klinghoffer by shooting him and then tossing his body overboard.<br /><br />— December 1985: Muslim extremists (backed by Libya) bombed airports in Rome and Vienna, killing 20 people, including five Americans.<br /><br />— April 1986: Muslim extremists (backed by Libya) bombed a discotheque frequented by U.S. servicemen in West Berlin, injuring hundreds and killing two, including a U.S. soldier.<br /><br />— December 1988: Muslim extremists (backed by Libya) bombed Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, killing all 259 on board and 11 on the ground.<br /><br /><br />— February 1993: Muslim extremists (al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, possibly with involvement of friendly rival al-Qaida) set off a bomb in the basement of the World Trade Center, killing six and wounding more than 1,000.<br /><br />— Spring 1993: Muslim extremists (al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, the Sudanese Islamic Front and at least one member of Hamas) plot to blow up the Lincoln and Holland tunnels, the U.N. complex, and the FBI's lower Manhattan headquarters.<br /><br />— November 1995: Muslim extremists (possibly Iranian "Party of God") explode a car bomb at U.S. military headquarters in Saudi Arabia, killing five U.S. military servicemen.<br /><br />— June 1996: Muslim extremists (13 Saudis and a Lebanese member of Hezbollah, probably with involvement of al-Qaida) explode a truck bomb outside the Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds.<br /><br />— August 1998: Muslim extremists (al-Qaida) explode truck bombs at U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, killing 224 and injuring thousands.<br /><br />— October 2000: Muslim extremists (al-Qaida) blow up the U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole, killing 17 U.S. sailors.<br /><br />— Sept. 11, 2001: Muslim extremists (al-Qaida) hijack commercial aircraft and fly planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania, killing nearly 3,000 Americans.Hollands Opushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07934064700542652027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-56405929424537014132007-01-13T08:47:00.000-05:002007-01-13T08:47:00.000-05:00Good morning gentledudes,
Good arguments seem to b...Good morning gentledudes,<br />Good arguments seem to being made here. I do not think that there will be much progress on the why did we go in question. Everyone agreed to do it. We went in, and regime change was the focus. Bill Clinton signed the “Iraq Liberation Act” into law. It read in part:<br /><br />"It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime."<br /><br />Now that does not mean it had to be done by military. But given the realities I have oft repeated that the ease of sanctions to provide basic humanitarian support ended up with food being stored in warehouses by Saddam Hussein, sanctions were not working - they only hurt the poor and disloyal. As my Christian brothers may know, the injustice addressed in the OT particularly addressed this type of situation, where the wealthy, the regime, denied the poor what was given them. Starvation and poverty were quite common under Saddam.<br /><br />Once we found no WMD, which was of course legitimate as all agreed he had those weapons, and given the increased presence of Al Qaida around the world and the types of nations that foster Islamic violence, we had good reason to use our might to topple the regime. Now of course a nation that lived in abject fear of being passed through the wood chipper and meat grinder, were slow to take up arms. And I would insist that more Iraqi's should be willing to have thier mosques blown up to kill the terrorists hiding in there, and to have thier homes destroyed if necessary. Freedom is costly, as our founding fathers found out. <br /><br />But Ian and Dave, don't you think that even if we were gone, the Iraqi's would have to kill or capture Al Qaida? I mean, it is not as if we left that the fighting will stop. So, I WAS in favor of training the Iraqi's. And the neglected reports of great success in other parts of Iraq at least deserve mention do they not? Can we acknowledge that? Can we acknowledge freedom and women's rights and national parks and conservation land and education and schools and hospitals in the North and South Iraqi regions?<br /><br />David, I do believe that you seek common ground, but it does seem you have a hard time refraining from provoking ire when you say things like the presidency would have been a Seinfeld episode. After all Pres. Bush one in the second election by a wider margin than the first and the Republican (failed) congress held record numbers as people were willing give it a try. Americans are like that. Pres. Bush was a Harvard grad with a pretty good average. His camera and PR presence - not so much! I am not condemning you. I am asking you to try to not do that. You have pointed out some things about my manner at times and I am listening. I know I can bully sometimes, and I really am going to pay attention to that. I appreciate anyone pointing that out if they see it or feel it. <br /><br /><br />Anyway, we are presently at 4.6% unemployment. Our Labor Dept. has always considered that virtual full employment. Anyone that wants "a job" can get one. I do not mean to intend wages are fair or all is well. But I am recognizing common areas that we should acknowledge. Pres. Pres. Bush had more minorities and women in high office than any other president. He has failed in many areas too though.<br /><br />I offer another post below detailing Islamic aggression and the obvious patience of America. Thank you for your attention.Hollands Opushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07934064700542652027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-14835513958297315182007-01-13T00:12:00.000-05:002007-01-13T00:12:00.000-05:00MKZ, the main point is we didn't have to invade Ir...MKZ, the main point is we didn't have to invade Iraq. Starting a war on a sovereign nation is serious business, and we had better be certain we were right. <br /><br />So let's ask this question one more time..why are we still there? I have to say that you continue to focus on only part of my question, and you still have failed to present the justification based on Jeffersonian principles as to why we went in. <br /><br />I agree that there is an enemy. But we've all been color coded into thinking that the enemy is whereever a Muslim is standing. <br /><br />I am starting to think that the Bush presidency would have become an episode of Seinfeld if it weren't for this war. If Bush's new strategy fails he will go down as one of our worst presidents ever.The Real Music Observerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07387434982189439053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-32511348296597939192007-01-12T23:04:00.000-05:002007-01-12T23:04:00.000-05:00mkz, your oft-repeated assertion has not been igno...mkz, your oft-repeated assertion has not been ignored. Perhaps you are simply ignoring our disagreement with your assumption. The jury was out on whether sanctions were working, or would work at the time of the invasion. In fact, far from the world agreeing with us, the world was against us. Call it weakness and cowardice on their part, but there was certainly no consensus that the Bush administration was correct in their assessment and impatience.<br /><br />Everyone can be listened to, and everyone can be reasoned with. The results may not be what one wants, but that doesn't mean the process should be abandoned preemptively on an assumption of failure.<br /><br />Even with the terrorists stating goals including death to America, that doesn't mean that they don't have claims that perhaps need to be heeded. I posed a question earlier about Bin Laden's reason for anger. No one answered. Have we all forgotten (or did you never know) that one of the things that angered him was the presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia on land he considered holy. Would it have been so terrible to remove the troops to avoid 9/11? And don't tell me that it would have happened anyway, since you don't know that any more than I know that removing the troops would have prevented it. The point is that it would have been a reasonable conversation to have had before hostilities escalated. If the reason for not doing so is simply that we don't negotiate with terrorists, then we are left with the national hubris that leads to the quagmire we find ourselves in now.<br /><br />I'll acknowledge that my assumptions are not facts, but neither will I concede that your assumptions are facts.Culture Dovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15230335386127525198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-64126762915769897382007-01-12T22:36:00.000-05:002007-01-12T22:36:00.000-05:00Sanctions, diplomacy and coalitions did nothing fo...Sanctions, diplomacy and coalitions did nothing for Iraq in 10 years. Sanctions and economic embargos against Iran will do nothing but give them the time they need to complete a nuclear weapon. When they have one, and they will, when they use it against Isreal, or an American target, and you know they will, they have stated as much. Can we then, after tens of thousands have died in an atomic blast and thousands more suffer a lingering death from radiation sickness, set the false hope of a diplomatic solution aside and see the truth? These people who wage the war of Islam DO NOT WANT PEACE. I continualy bring this point up, ask the question, and pose the problem before this audience, and this point is sidesteped, ignored and unaddressed. We could leave Iraq today, bring our soldiers home from Africa and all of the Middle East, mothball our military and the war will still go on, it will be brought to our shores, to our cities and to our neighborhoods. Running away will not stop it, diplomacy will not stop it. This is a sad and terrible truth David, We tried to ignore the advance of world domination by madmen in before WW II, and it came to us, this new battle is only different in the fact that we are fighting a new enemy with unlimited resorces of oil and bodies that believes dying to kill those who do not believe as they do, gives them an instant pass to heaven! This type of ferocity and fanaticism can not be reasoned with, bargained with, or ignored.mkzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06670914911711258522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-53213431561517484592007-01-12T22:09:00.000-05:002007-01-12T22:09:00.000-05:00Ok, MZK, I'm going to try to prove that patience i...Ok, MZK, I'm going to try to prove that patience is a virtue, this is your quote "as a nation admittedly had other concerns, WMD's, and the rapid growth of radical Islam". <br /><br />First are all the folks in Iraq radical? Some are some are not. And it begs the question, why Iraq and not Iran and not Syria, and why not finish jobs before we start new ones, I. E.-the Taliban? <br /><br />We had other concerns, and they were in Afganistan. We switched gears in mid-stream wihout much justification. We could have weakened Saddam and toppled that regime without firing a shot. It's called sanctions, diplomacy and coalitions. How are we to stop "the growth of radical Islam?" Do we just get a password and then shoot? Why should American soldiers continue to be sitting ducks, and sending more of them makes for more sitting ducks. <br /><br />I don't know how you "stop the growth". But what I think we did was tip over a hornets nest and now we have no idea how to contain it. You could turn Iraq into a parking lot. But guess what? Millions will die because we had no point being there other than to quell a weapons build up. No weapons, no need to stay. Our soldiers could be in 50 other hot spots doing more than just being victims of roadside bombs.The Real Music Observerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07387434982189439053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-61151574956675219072007-01-12T20:30:00.000-05:002007-01-12T20:30:00.000-05:00Does not the constitution demand a declairation of...Does not the constitution demand a declairation of war by the president, and radification by congress to make the action legal by the rules of the document?<br /> The anti-colonial clause realy does not take presidence in this issue, we never had any intent to start world domination with an invasion of Iraq.<br /> We acted with consent of the United Nations, many allies, and the assention of congress to depose a dictator defying the will of the international community. We as a nation admittedly had other concerns, WMD's, and the rapid growth of radical Islam. We are aware that Saddam's regiem was largely secular, but his population, as we can plainly see by their willingness to kill members of opposing Islamic sects, is not. We have indeed put ourselves in a precarious position, and leaving now will only leave a void that Iran and the radical Islamic jihadists will rush to fill, and use as a platrorm to launch attacks against the rest of the non-muslim world, beginning with Isreal, and ending with us. All in all, we fight them there now, or we fight them on our own soil later, but they will make sure there is a fight, the word of their god insists upon it.mkzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06670914911711258522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-22556787087044057872007-01-12T20:19:00.000-05:002007-01-12T20:19:00.000-05:00When are we going to "instill democracy" in Pakist...When are we going to "instill democracy" in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait?<br /><br />And didn't the war become illegal when the benchmarks in the authorization bill voted by congress were met and yet the war continued? And if not at that point, then certainly the president has no legal footing for his current action since the congress only authorized the use of force to discover WMDs and remove Saddam.Culture Dovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15230335386127525198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-62976605883466787852007-01-12T19:55:00.000-05:002007-01-12T19:55:00.000-05:00Mkz said " The war may not have a basis in the def...Mkz said " The war may not have a basis in the definition of the constitution, it does not need one"<br /><br />Oh, contrare amigo, it does need to meet constitutional requirements as directed by our founders as a protection against a rogue leader that would send us into conflicts that did not meet these criteria. Thomas Jefferson and crew are likely spinning in their graves, as their whole reason for doing this was to not be (as England was) interventionalists who wanted to conquer the world. But more importantly they recognized war needed to be waged against a clear and present danger. Again, we had a warrant, we executed a search, and we found no WMD's. We even toppled some statues and our martyr dictator Saddam. It's done. Finis. So why are we still there? What's the mission? How do we buck centuries of blood lust and tribal warfare to "install a democracy". <br /><br />Using this logic we should be installing democracies whereever they are not. We are not capable of spreading our way of life to all nations-and some as we've seen so vividly don't want it. How do explain to Jesus the insane amount of collateral damage done in the name of liberation? <br /><br />My point still stands, and I believe I'm with Jefferson, Franklin and Washington. I'd rather keep company with the likes of these fellows than with President Cheney and Mad Dr.Rove.The Real Music Observerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07387434982189439053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-59704125121626075752007-01-12T19:15:00.000-05:002007-01-12T19:15:00.000-05:00By the provision of the Constitution, the power to...By the provision of the Constitution, the power to wage war is in the hands of the president, and congress. It was decided by our founding fathers that this is the allowance for hostilities. The war may not have a basis in the definition of the constitution, it does not need one. The president proposed the war, and I believe all but two members of congress radified the proposal, by the letter of our establishing document, it is so made `legal`.<br /> OP, your thoughts on this?mkzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06670914911711258522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-14773814025934878092007-01-12T18:55:00.000-05:002007-01-12T18:55:00.000-05:00Again guys as Kirk said to Kahn in Star Trek (The ...Again guys as Kirk said to Kahn in Star Trek (The Wrath of Kahn) you keep firing but you keep missing the target!<br /><br />NOBODY HAS YET TO EXPLAIN USING THE JEFFERSONIAN MODEL, WHY A WAR WITH IRAQ WAS WARRANTED, NECCESSARY AND CONSTITUTIONAL. <br /><br />I'd love to hear that argument. Honestly. I would. Carry on.The Real Music Observerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07387434982189439053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34594993.post-36515507308979803302007-01-12T17:41:00.000-05:002007-01-12T17:41:00.000-05:00Hello Mr. Cleanhead! Good to hear your voice in th...Hello Mr. Cleanhead! Good to hear your voice in this part of the galaxy! Even if we do not agree.<br /> Bravo OP! My hero! Thank you for the Brilliant defense of the orthodox position and manhood in general. Mrs. Peacebang`s gender bias attack was unwarrented. Your linguistic artistry is a wonder, and a blessing to the ear.(eye)<br /> YBIC, mkzmkzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06670914911711258522noreply@blogger.com